Replied: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:50:28 +0100 Replied: Gary Lawrence Murphy Replied: "Stephen D. Williams" Replied: johnhall@evergo.net Replied: fork@example.com Replied: lea@lig.net From fork-admin@xent.com Tue Sep 17 17:22:15 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: yyyy@localhost.example.com Received: from localhost (jalapeno [127.0.0.1]) by jmason.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A560216F03 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:22:14 +0100 (IST) Received: from jalapeno [127.0.0.1] by localhost with IMAP (fetchmail-5.9.0) for jm@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:22:14 +0100 (IST) Received: from xent.com ([64.161.22.236]) by dogma.slashnull.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8HEplC14370 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:51:48 +0100 Received: from lair.xent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xent.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDAA62940F0; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 07:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: fork@example.com Received: from smtp1.superb.net (smtp1.superb.net [207.228.225.14]) by xent.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B35E729409F for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 07:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2030 invoked from network); 17 Sep 2002 14:50:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maya.dyndns.org) (207.61.5.143) by smtp1.superb.net with SMTP; 17 Sep 2002 14:50:50 -0000 Received: by maya.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1275E1C2C4; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:50:47 -0400 (EDT) To: "Stephen D. Williams" Cc: johnhall@evergo.net, fork@example.com, lea@lig.net Subject: Re: Slaughter in the Name of God References: <004601c25dc9$67a436a0$0200a8c0@JMHALL> <3D869694.1060906@lig.net> From: Gary Lawrence Murphy X-Home-Page: http://www.teledyn.com Organization: TCI Business Innovation through Open Source Computing Message-Id: Reply-To: Gary Lawrence Murphy X-Url: http://www.teledyn.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: fork-admin@xent.com Errors-To: fork-admin@xent.com X-Beenthere: fork@example.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Friends of Rohit Khare List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: 17 Sep 2002 10:50:46 -0400 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-9.8 required=7.0 tests=AWL,KNOWN_MAILING_LIST,NOSPAM_INC,REFERENCES, SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE version=2.50-cvs X-Spam-Level: >>>>> "S" == Stephen D Williams writes: S> A) Which religion is it that can claim no foul actions in its S> past? Certainly not Christianity, Islam, etc. Rastafari. That is, if you concede that of the two founding branches, only the one founded by the Nyabingi were legit and the others were thinly-veneered anti-colonial hooligans. There is also Vietnamese Buddhism, unless you count setting fire to oneself as a "foul action". S> C) Many splinter Christianity religions have 'clean hands' but S> they also aren't 'found in the wild'. You'd have to explain "found in the wild". For example, I know of no violence perpetrated by the South Pacific "Cargo Cults" outside of a pretty darn /mean/ game of cricket. S> D) The Northern Ireland Protestant vs. Catholic feud, recently S> more or less concluded, is not completely unlike this kind of S> friction generated by splitting society too much along S> religious lines. One Post article pointed out that the problem S> basically stemmed from the vertical integration of areas along S> religious lines all the way to schools, government, political S> party, etc. (Of course both cases have a heritage of British S> conquest, but who doesn't?) When we launched the Native Net in 1989, one of the first things we noticed on networking aboriginal groups around the world is that the British Army, with the US Army as a proxy by extension, were the common thread. Where neither was present (physically or through influence) there /tended/ to be less violence. The issue in Ireland is complex, but rest assured that religious aspects are only a co-incidence of the invader/colonials being predominantly members of the Royal-headed Anglicans and the aboriginal population being predominantly members of the Pope-headed Catholics. The conflict itself has nothing to do with ideology or practice, since the Anglican Church is a near-identical clone of Catholicism. (now I bet that's going to attract some healthy debate ;) S> .. most Protestants are unionists who want the S> province to remain part of Britain. Mebst. Mebst. It's the other way around. Most Unionists are protestants. It's their _Unionism_ that is the source of the conflict, not their sacriments. S> ... Police records and historians agree that the most lethal S> group by far was the IRA, fighting on the Catholic side with a S> goal of a united Ireland And which side of the colonial fence do you suppose the Police and Historians sit? If the Russians had invaded the USA as feared in episodes such as the Bay of Pigs, would the Americans have organized to become a "lethal force", or would they have just said, "Oh well, there goes /that/ democracy!" and settle in under communist rule? Just wondering. >> 2. The US is trying to avoid making war on the Muslim religion. It is interesting to me that the Canadian media is trying to paint Chretien as some sort of buffoon for saying that 3rd-world poverty was a major contributor to 9-11. If they'd /watch/ his now-infamous interview, they'd see that it's still us-against-hooligans, but his point is that the hooligans would not be able to find friendly states so easily if those states were not so bled-dry by the west. The same is true of street-gangs: When people are disenfranchised, it's easier to offer them the Triad as a new family. You get cellphones, cars, a dry place to live. Triad, biker gangs, mafia, the IRA, Al Queda ... we've been fighting the War on Terrorism for as long as there's been commerce, so you'd think we'd /realize/ that escalation of violence is not a solution. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy - garym@teledyn.com - TeleDynamics Communications - blog: http://www.auracom.com/~teledyn - biz: http://teledyn.com/ - "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." (Picasso)