From fork-admin@xent.com Fri Sep 6 15:28:17 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: yyyy@localhost.example.com Received: from localhost (jalapeno [127.0.0.1]) by jmason.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8507E16F6D for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:26:11 +0100 (IST) Received: from jalapeno [127.0.0.1] by localhost with IMAP (fetchmail-5.9.0) for jm@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 06 Sep 2002 15:26:11 +0100 (IST) Received: from xent.com ([64.161.22.236]) by dogma.slashnull.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g86Dx4C09730 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:59:05 +0100 Received: from lair.xent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xent.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617C82942A3; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 06:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: fork@example.com Received: from venus.phpwebhosting.com (venus.phpwebhosting.com [64.29.16.27]) by xent.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EC5C22941F0 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 06:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18986 invoked by uid 508); 6 Sep 2002 13:57:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hydrogen.leitl.org) (217.80.40.31) by venus.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 6 Sep 2002 13:57:51 -0000 Received: from localhost (eugen@localhost) by hydrogen.leitl.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g86DvlS07637; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:57:47 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: hydrogen.leitl.org: eugen owned process doing -bs From: Eugen Leitl To: Russell Turpin Cc: Subject: Re: Selling Wedded Bliss (was Re: Ouch...) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: fork-admin@xent.com Errors-To: fork-admin@xent.com X-Beenthere: fork@example.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Friends of Rohit Khare List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:57:47 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-11.3 required=7.0 tests=AWL,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,KNOWN_MAILING_LIST, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,USER_AGENT_PINE, X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.50-cvs X-Spam-Level: On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, Russell Turpin wrote: > Don't swallow too quickly what you have read about > more traditional cultures, today or in the past. Do I don't swallow ;> I was just offering anecdotal first-hand experiences from a number of cultures indicating 1) we apparently have a problem 2) which requires more than ad hoc hand-waving approach (it's trivial! it's obvious! all we have to do is XY!). > we have any statistics on the poor man's divorce from > centuries past? Are you so sure that the kids in 18th That's easy. Divorce didn't happen. The church and the society looked after that. Only relatively recently that privilege was granted to kings, and only very recently to commoners. > century England were any more "functional" than those > today? What about 20th century Saudi Arabia? Is Saudi Arabia a meaningful emigration source? > >At least from the viewpoint of demographics sustainability and > >counterpressure to gerontocracy and resulting innovatiophobia we're doing > >something wrong. > > Granting your first two points, I'm skeptical about > the last. Do you see ANY signs that America specifically I wasn't talking about the US specifically. (Though the demographics problem exists there as well, albeit not in that extent we Eurotrash are facing right now). > or the west generally are suffering from lack of > innovation, vis-a-vis youth nations such as Iran? The 1) I'm seeing lack of innovation, and -- more disturbing -- trend towards even less innovation by an autocatalytic process (gerontocracy favors gerontocracy). > last I read, the third generation of the revolution all > (a) want to move to America, and (b) failing that, are > importing everything they can American. My point was that the west, US first and foremost, importing innovation carriers and working against bad trend in the demographics by large scale import. While this kinda, sorta works on the short run, this is not something sustainable.