From spamassassin-talk-admin@lists.sourceforge.net Thu Aug 29 11:08:12 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: yyyy@localhost.netnoteinc.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phobos.labs.netnoteinc.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12BCA4416E for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 06:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phobos [127.0.0.1] by localhost with IMAP (fetchmail-5.9.0) for jm@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:06:08 +0100 (IST) Received: from usw-sf-list2.sourceforge.net (usw-sf-fw2.sourceforge.net [216.136.171.252]) by dogma.slashnull.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7T3DWZ26496 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 04:13:32 +0100 Received: from usw-sf-list1-b.sourceforge.net ([10.3.1.13] helo=usw-sf-list1.sourceforge.net) by usw-sf-list2.sourceforge.net with esmtp (Exim 3.31-VA-mm2 #1 (Debian)) id 17kFh7-0004Be-00; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:10:05 -0700 Received: from [66.120.210.133] (helo=kabul.ad.skymv.com) by usw-sf-list1.sourceforge.net with esmtp (Exim 3.31-VA-mm2 #1 (Debian)) id 17kFgw-0000QV-00 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:09:54 -0700 Received: from kabul.ad.skymv.com ([192.168.1.70]) by kabul.ad.skymv.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:09:49 -0700 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [SAtalk] O.T. Habeus -- Why? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Priority: normal Importance: normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-Id: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-Tnef-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [SAtalk] O.T. Habeus -- Why? Thread-Index: AcJO7qte24+xcf7ESLmrGiiIRFMj4wAGlwww From: "Dan Kohn" To: X-Originalarrivaltime: 29 Aug 2002 03:09:49.0231 (UTC) FILETIME=[890B3BF0:01C24F09] X-Habeas-Swe-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-Swe-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-Swe-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-Swe-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-Swe-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-Swe-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-Swe-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-Swe-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-Swe-9: mark in spam to . Sender: spamassassin-talk-admin@example.sourceforge.net Errors-To: spamassassin-talk-admin@example.sourceforge.net X-Beenthere: spamassassin-talk@example.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9-sf.net Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Talk about SpamAssassin List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: X-Original-Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:09:49 -0700 Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:09:49 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dogma.slashnull.org id g7T3DWZ26496 X-Pyzor: Reported 0 times. X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-27.1 required=7.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,HABEAS_SWE,KNOWN_MAILING_LIST, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03 version=2.40-cvs X-Spam-Level: Guys, the Habeas Infringers List (HIL) exists explicitly to deal with spammers while we're getting judgments against them and especially in other countries, where those judgments are harder to get. Please note that nobody has ever had an incentive before to go after regular spammers. Yes, some attorneys general have prosecuted blatant pyramid schemes, and ISPs have won some theft of service suits, but the vast majority of spammers go forward with out any legal hassles. So, I can't understand how Daniel can assert that you can't track spammers down when it's never really been tried. We can subpoena the records of the business they spammed on behalf of. We can subpoena the records of the ISP that provided them service, and of the credit card they used for the whack-a-mole accounts. We can use private investigators. Yes, these people are often lowlifes (chickenboners). But, they're not secret agents. They're just trying to make a buck, and Habeas' whole business is about finding them and putting them out of business Habeas has the incentive to pursue spammers (that use our warrant mark) in a way that no one ever has had before. Given that our whole business plan relies on Habeas becoming synonymous with "not spam", I can't understand why you would assume ahead of time that we will be unsuccessful, plan for that failure, and in so doing, remove the potential of success, which is anti-spam filters like SA acting on the Habeas warrant mark. Daniel, it's easy enough for you to change the Habeas scores yourself on your installation. If Habeas fails to live up to its promise to only license the warrant mark to non-spammers and to place all violators on the HIL, then I have no doubt that Justin and Craig will quickly remove us from the next release. But, you're trying to kill Habeas before it has a chance to show any promise. At the end of the day, SpamAssassin is like the Club, in that it encourages thieves (spammers) to just go after the next car (those without SA) rather than yours. Habeas can play the role of LoJack (the transmitter), in enabling the apprehension of thieves so that they don't steal any more cars. But only if we're given a chance to succeed. - dan -- Dan Kohn -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Quinlan [mailto:quinlan@pathname.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 16:38 To: Matthew Cline Cc: spamassassin-talk@example.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [SAtalk] O.T. Habeus -- Why? Matthew Cline writes: > There must be *some* way of tracking a spammer down, since they are > planning on making money from the spam. What a court would consider > evidence of being the spammer is another question. Haha!!! Just a few notes: - It will be difficult to find, prosecute, and win money from someone in various non-friendly countries where spam originates (China is a good example) even if they do officially "respect" copyright law. - Law suits take time. Between now and conclusion of the first court case, we could have years of spam in our mail boxes! - Contact information can change: phone numbers, PO boxes, stolen cell phones, temporary email addresses, etc. - Spammers do not always remember to include contact information! I don't understand it either, but nobody said they were bright. Also, some spam is non-commercial or sent by a third-party (for example, "pump and dump" stock scams), so contact information is not strictly required for the spammer to get their way. Dan ------------------------------------------------------- This sf.net email is sponsored by: Jabber - The world's fastest growing real-time communications platform! Don't just IM. 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