182 lines
8.4 KiB
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182 lines
8.4 KiB
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From fork-admin@xent.com Mon Sep 2 23:01:34 2002
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From: "Reza B'Far (eBuilt)" <rbfar@ebuilt.com>
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To: "Robert Harley" <harley@argote.ch>, <fork@spamassassin.taint.org>
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Subject: RE: Java is for kiddies
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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:48:36 -0700
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-----Original Message-----
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From: fork-admin@xent.com [mailto:fork-admin@xent.com]On Behalf Of
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Robert Harley
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Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 2:55 AM
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To: fork@spamassassin.taint.org
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Subject: RE: Java is for kiddies
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Reza B'Far wrote:
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>This thread kind of surprises me... I started coding with C, then C++, and
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>moved on to Java... And, I think that:
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Robert Harley wrote:
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>Looks like a case of "MY experience is comprehensive, YOUR'S is
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>anecdotal, THEY don't know what they're talking about".
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Well, I sure don't claim that... I think most people on Fork probably have
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more programming knowledge than I do... There's lots of experience out
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here...
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Reza B'Far wrote:
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>1. The people who pay the wages don't give a flyin' heck what programming
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>language you write things in... they just want it to work.
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Robert Harley wrote:
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>In my experience, they do care. It has to work certainly, and in
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>particular it has to work with what they've already got, and it has to
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>work on client's systems.
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>My limited experience of Java started a few years ago when support on
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>Linux was so terrible that I ran away screaming and haven't come back yet.
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Well, I think until recently, support for most things on Linux was kind of
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shady... Things have got much better... You're right in that the JDK used to
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suck on Linux... But then, IMHO, Linux is still maturing.... or at least
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development tools for Linux are maturing... I've been developing a few
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server side apps that run on Linux recently with JDK 1.3.x and they've had
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no problems with great performance.
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Robert Harley worte:
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>Microsoft has announced that they plan to remove Java from Windows.
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>They took it out of XP already and it has to be installed with a
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>service pack. Somehow, I can't imagine them removing the ability to
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>run C programs.
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Hmmm... Do you really think that MS is pulling out Java because it's a "Bad"
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programming language or application platform? You don't think this has
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anything to do with .NET being a competitor to Java do you? Or that MS has
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basically copied Java (with some additional features) and called it C#?
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Isn't that alone an indication that they actually DO think that a VM is the
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right way to go for most high level applications?
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Reza B'Far wrote:
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>2. C and C++ forces the developer to solve problems such as memory
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>management over and over again.
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Robert Harley wrote:
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>Can't say I spend any noticeable amount of time on memory management
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>issues, apart from the fact that I frequently need > 4 GB.
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Hmmm again.... You're telling me that you've never had a nasty bug that took
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you a couple of days to track down that had to do with a memory leak? I am
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not the best C/C++ programmer... not even close... But I've known really
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good ones... and even they have nasty bugs that have to do with memory
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management, however occasional they may be.
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>It's about design patterns, architecture, high level stuff...
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Robert Harley wrote:
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>If your problem just requires application of a "design pattern" to solve,
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>then it's trivial anyway irrespective of language.
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Wow! So you're telling me that unless the application involves
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bit-counting, it's trivial? What about the application itself? What about
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high level problems such as task distribution, work-flow, etc.? Aren't most
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high level problems solved with high level solutions like design patterns?
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Or do you solve high level problems by writing optimal C/C++ code? For
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example, do you think that most people working on collaboration frameworks
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(there are lots of them on this list), are working on writing an operating
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system with assembly that provides for a collaborative environment?
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>I am amazed by the amount of time wasted by people talking about low
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>level problems that have been solved 10 million times over and over
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>and over again...
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Robert Harley wrote:
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>You appear to be gratuitously asserting that C programmers waste time
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>on irrelevant low-level problems and Java programmers don't. Depends
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>entirely on the programmer, not the language.
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I can see how you could infer this. However, what I believe to really be the
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case is that Java is one of the best languages for writing large
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applications with many components that involves the collaboration of more
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than three programmers. In those cases, it's always very hard to get the
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programmers to agree on API's, memory management techniques, etc. With
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Java, the JCP takes care of the discussions so that you don't sit around in
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a long meeting trying to decide what API to use to hook up to a database
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(JDBC) or a messaging bus (JMS).
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>3. Java is not just a programming language! It's also a platform...
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Robert Harley wrote:
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>Buzzword.
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YIKES! Have you written db code with C/C++ for different databases (just an
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example)? Tried porting a persistence layer from Windows to Unix? Say you
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have Informix running on Solaris and you want to port to Windows with MS SQL
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(bad idea...but for the sake of the example), would you rather deal with
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JDBC port or C/C++ port that uses Informix drivers and now you have to use
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ODBC?
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>a monolithic set of API's or a crap load of different API's slicing
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>and dicing the same problems 50 different ways?
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Robert Harley wrote:
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>Unsupported assertion.
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So, are you saying that there is a standard set of API's for C/C++ for
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everything? (aside to the minimal ANSI stuff). Is there a standard way of
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dealing with C/C++ applications for various domain problems (messaging,
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database persistence, etc.) that rivals Java? I'd like to know if there is
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one accepted by everyone who writes C/C++... In that case, I claim
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ignorance...
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Not suggesting that Java is the golden hammer.... Just that C/C++ is
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overkill for most things... I even coded in VB... But VB is a true disgrace
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to programming... It's just lame... Java is Object Oriented... (no
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flame-mail from the anti-OO people please... that is a religious
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discussion...) and relatively clean... And I don't think that every "Kid"
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can write a well designed Java program. Kids typically don't understand
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various design patterns and principles... To my experience, they actually
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tend to think more of the low level problems, wanting to rewrite and
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reinvent the world... a tendency that is much more possible, IMHO, in C/C++
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than in Java due to existence of standard API's.
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