166 lines
6.5 KiB
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166 lines
6.5 KiB
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From fork-admin@xent.com Mon Sep 2 16:22:39 2002
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Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:54:55 +0200 (CEST)
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To: fork@spamassassin.taint.org
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Subject: RE: Java is for kiddies
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From: harley@argote.ch (Robert Harley)
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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:54:55 +0200 (CEST)
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Reza B'Far wrote:
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>This thread kind of surprises me... I started coding with C, then C++, and
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>moved on to Java... And, I think that:
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Looks like a case of "MY experience is comprehensive, YOUR'S is
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anecdotal, THEY don't know what they're talking about".
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>1. The people who pay the wages don't give a flyin' heck what programming
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>language you write things in... they just want it to work.
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In my experience, they do care. It has to work certainly, and in
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particular it has to work with what they've already got, and it has to
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work on client's systems.
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My limited experience of Java started a few years ago when support on
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Linux was so terrible that I ran away screaming and haven't come back yet.
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Microsoft has announced that they plan to remove Java from Windows.
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They took it out of XP already and it has to be installed with a
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service pack. Somehow, I can't imagine them removing the ability to
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run C programs.
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>2. C and C++ forces the developer to solve problems such as memory
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>management over and over again.
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Can't say I spend any noticeable amount of time on memory management
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issues, apart from the fact that I frequently need > 4 GB.
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>It's about design patterns, architecture, high level stuff...
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If your problem just requires application of a "design pattern" to solve,
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then it's trivial anyway irrespective of language.
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>I am amazed by the amount of time wasted by people talking about low
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>level problems that have been solved 10 million times over and over
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>and over again...
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You appear to be gratuitously asserting that C programmers waste time
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on irrelevant low-level problems and Java programmers don't. Depends
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entirely on the programmer, not the language.
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>3. Java is not just a programming language! It's also a platform...
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Buzzword.
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>a monolithic set of API's or a crap load of different API's slicing
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>and dicing the same problems 50 different ways?
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Unsupported assertion.
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>4. If you have a program of any type of high complexity written in C, you
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>can't possibly think that you could port it to different platforms within
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>the same magnitude of cost as Java....
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Dunno. E.g., I ported a wee 15000-line C program to Darwin on PowerPC
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in a few minutes yesterday. Sure if it was badly designed it would be
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10 times the size and harder to port. If it depended on unavailable
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libraries it would be much harder. Portable code is easy to port.
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At least that is the case when then language you used is available on
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the target platform: I also run on ARM systems with no proper Java.
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>5. Makes no sense for a scientific or a business project to depend on a
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>person... Java, IMHO, reduces the dependence of these entities on the
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>individual developer as it is much easier to reverse engineer Java as it is
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>to reverse engineer C (large applications).
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You can pay a good programmer to solve your problem now, or else get
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some kids to hack spaghetti Fortran in any language and then pay for
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maintenance headaches ad infinitum.
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>6. Hardware is getting so fast that I'm not sure if the performance
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>difference between Java and C/C++ are relevant any more.
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Whoah!!! Performance matters to me every day. (Right now I'm taking
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time out to write email while waiting for a job to run). Sure I could
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wait 5 years until everyone's PC is fast enough to generate random EC's
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in no time, when any twit will be able to program inefficient code
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that is fast enough and the market will be overrun by competitors,
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or I can do it now when very few people can.
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>The end goal is the scientific or business problem to be solved.
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Yes.
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>And for those problems, languages such as Java, SmallTalk, and others
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>allow you to think more high level than low level. Thinking of bits
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>and bytes takes too much gray matter away from the real important
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>problems....
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It's true! I admit everything! Mea maxima culpa! Working in C makes
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me spend all day thinking base, rank thoughts about hard-core bitography!
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Not.
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Actually I spend most of my time thinking in high-level mathematics.
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>Why do most computer scientists insist on solving the same problems
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>over and over again [...]
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Dunno, and frankly I don't see the relevance to the issue at hand.
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I'm sure Java is fine for some stuff, as is C or whatever. Horses for
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courses.
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Bye,
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Rob.
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.-. .-.
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/ \ .-. .-. / \
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/ \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \
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/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \
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/ \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / \ / \
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\ / `-' `-' \ /
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`-' `-'
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