From robin.hill@baesystems.com Wed Aug 28 10:53:58 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: zzzz@localhost.netnoteinc.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phobos.labs.netnoteinc.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D00A44155 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 05:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phobos [127.0.0.1] by localhost with IMAP (fetchmail-5.9.0) for zzzz@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:53:49 +0100 (IST) Received: from n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.74]) by dogma.slashnull.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g7S8G4Z16036 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:16:04 +0100 X-Egroups-Return: sentto-2242572-53128-1030522570-zzzz=spamassassin.taint.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.98] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Aug 2002 08:16:10 -0000 X-Sender: robin.hill@baesystems.com X-Apparently-To: zzzzteana@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 28 Aug 2002 08:16:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 70924 invoked from network); 28 Aug 2002 08:16:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Aug 2002 08:16:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.bae.co.uk) (20.138.254.61) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Aug 2002 08:16:09 -0000 Received: from ngbaux (ngbaux.msd.bae.co.uk [141.245.68.234]) by smtp1.bae.co.uk (Switch-2.2.2/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g7S8G5t17586 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:16:05 +0100 (BST) Received: from ngban12.ng.bae.co.uk ([141.245.68.238]) by ngbaux.net.bae.co.uk (PMDF V5.2-33 #44998) with ESMTP id <0H1J00AK7O7RP2@ngbaux.net.bae.co.uk> for forteana@egroups.com; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:14:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from ngbauh.ng.bae.co.uk (unverified) by ngban12.ng.bae.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:14:25 +0100 Received: (from x400@localhost) by ngbauh.ng.bae.co.uk (8.9.3 (PHNE_18546)/8.8.6) id JAA24596 for forteana@egroups.com; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:18:26 +0100 (BST) Received: by GOLD 400; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:17:20 +0000 To: zzzzteana@yahoogroups.com Message-Id: <"020828081752Z.WT24519. 6*/PN=Robin.Hill/OU=Technical/OU=NOTES/O=BAe MAA/PRMD=BAE/ADMD=GOLD 400/C=GB/"@MHS> X-Mailer: NetJunction (NetJunction 5.1.1-p2)/MIME From: Robin Hill X-Yahoo-Profile: sfgameruk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list zzzzteana@yahoogroups.com; contact forteana-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list zzzzteana@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:17:20 +0000 Subject: [zzzzteana] re: Steam Reply-To: zzzzteana@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:15:36 -0500 (EST) Jay Lake wrote: >Second, one could make the assumption that ancient or future civilizations >would not be hydrocarbon based. There are alternative fuel sources, >including seabed methane, biomass and all the usual suspects -- solar, >hydro etc. Some of these could be exploited on a decidedly low-tech (ie, >emergent civilization) basis. However, it is difficult to conceive of an >industrial civilization that doesn't employ wheels, axles and bearings, >all of which require lubrication. I'm not an engineer (Robin, anyone?) but >it's my understanding that vegetable lubrication breaks down under stress, >and that oil or graphite lubricants are the only reasonable choices for >high temperature/high rotation applications, at least prior to extremely >advanced modes of chemical synthesis. This is a good point. There are a lot of alternatives to hydrocarbon products derived from petroleum, but these have often been developed as a replacement for petroleum after the technology has been established - there is a growing industry in plant-derived plastics and lubricants, but this is to replicate materials that have been previously created much more easily within the petrochemical industry. Vegetable-derived lubricants have been used. The Russians used sunflower oil in the lubrication systems of tanks and trucks during the second world war, and work is being done in the UK to produce diesel fuel derived from waste cooking oil from fast-food restaurants. Jay's correct in his opinion that vegetable oil is not as durable as petroleum oil, but this is only because of the lack of sophistication of the chemistry involved. Synthetic fuels and lubricants are continuously being developed, and I don't see any problems with synthetics ultimately matching the performance of the more conventional products. As the rock oil runs out, plant oil derivatives *will* be developed to fill the gap. In parallel, changes will occur in the designs of the machines to cope with any changes in performance of the lubricants. My big concern is if the technology were ever to be lost for some reason. Re-creating a petrochemical industry from scratch without petrochemicals (that is, going immediately to plant-based synthetics) would be extremely difficult, especially if it were necessary to recreate *all* of the petrochemical-derived products (not just lubricants and fuels). I suspect that, bearing in mind the ingenuity of the human race, it would happen, just at a different pace. Imagine an industrial revollution based on, for example, methane from pig manure, or diesel oil from sunflowers. All we would then have to do is get used to all the machines smelling like pig farms and fish and chip shops... Robin Hill, STEAMY BESS, Brough, East Yorkshire ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/7gSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: forteana-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/